Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Fri, 08/25/2023 - 2:45pm

#2

tusharpatel1

Chris – Hello.
It is great that you love travel demand forecasting and data science.

You certainly do not need PE if you want to stay on technical track in modeling and data science. However, most of the Dept of transportation projects RFPs require proposed project manager to have PE, even on purely modeling projects. So in those cases, it can help to have a PE, from the consulting firm’s perspective.

Thanks, Tushar

From: cday=wfrc.org@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of cday
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 1:18 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Hey everyone, I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago. My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science. (Check out my thesis here) This helped me get a job working on travel demand model

Hey everyone,

I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago. My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science. (Check out my thesis here) This helped me get a job working on travel demand model development at my local MPO. So far I love working with the travel model and enjoy data science and all things dealing with code.

My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I also don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in travel demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable future.

I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another qualification, even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting the PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed in the travel modeling space?

Thank you,

Chris Day

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Fri, 08/25/2023 - 10:12pm

#3

weqiqulam

Hi Chris

First, let me say that Tushar is a smart guy with a lot of experience. It’s worth listening to him! (Hi, Tushar!)

That said, I do not have a P.E., and I too have a master’s degree from a civil engineering program. I went to grad school after working in small MPOs doing travel modeling for four years after I got my bachelor’s degree, also in civil engineering. I thought I would go back to the public sector after getting my master’s, but I decided to give consulting a try. I’ve given it 36 years, and I think I will give it some more time…

In all that time working for the same company, I have never regretted lacking a P.E., and it has never kept me from working on anything I wanted to. I have managed modeling projects in about half the states as well as for the federal government, and there was never a requirement for me to have a P.E. Some of these projects were for MPOs and others for state DOTs, as well as a few other public agencies.
My company has over 40 modelers, and while some have P.E.’s, most do not.

Tushar is correct, though, that there are some state DOTs that do require their consultants to have a P.E. on the project though it doesn’t always have to be the project manager. Sometimes our proposals include someone from our staff who has a P.E., to fulfill such a requirement, and my company has several people with P.E.’s. I also should note that it may make a difference for a private employer who is an engineering firm (mine is not).

I can’t speak with as much knowledge regarding public sector employment. A P.E. would not have benefitted me in my long ago MPO positions, but it might matter for some other agencies, especially at the state level, in terms of qualification for a position, advancement, or salary. Some of my public sector clients have had P.E.’s, and some haven’t. And for a lot of them, I have no idea though they are eminently qualified.

It certainly can’t hurt to put “P.E.” after your name, but in my experience, it doesn’t really mean much in terms of how good you are at modeling. It probably is more of a personal choice for you.

Best of luck in your career!

--Tom

Thomas F. Rossi
Principal
Travel Demand Forecasting
101 Station Landing, Suite 410
Medford, MA 02155
t 781-539-6756

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9D7A1.3DF170C0]
www.camsys.com

Connect with us
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From: tushar.patel=aecom.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of tusharpatel1
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 2:56 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Chris – Hello.
It is great that you love travel demand forecasting and data science.

You certainly do not need PE if you want to stay on technical track in modeling and data science. However, most of the Dept of transportation projects RFPs require proposed project manager to have PE, even on purely modeling projects. So in those cases, it can help to have a PE, from the consulting firm’s perspective.

Thanks, Tushar

From: cday=wfrc.org@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of cday
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 1:18 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Hey everyone,

I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago. My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science. (Check out my thesis here) This helped me get a job working on travel demand model development at my local MPO. So far I love working with the travel model and enjoy data science and all things dealing with code.

My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I also don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in travel demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable future.

I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another qualification, even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting the PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed in the travel modeling space?

Thank you,

Chris Day

--
Full post: https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
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Sat, 08/26/2023 - 9:55am

#4

PStopher

Chris,

I have been a transportation planner (Civil engineering Bachelor's degree)
for 59 years. I am not a PE and it has never presented a problem for me.
Not having one never precluded me from any job so far and I am now 80 years
old.

Peter Stopher

On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 12:18 PM, cday wrote:

>
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago.
> My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science.
> (Check out my thesis here )
> This helped me get a job working on travel demand model development at my
> local MPO. So far I love working with the travel model and enjoy data
> science and all things dealing with code.
>
> My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I
> already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I also
> don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in travel
> demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable
> future.
>
> I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another qualification,
> even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting the
> PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed in
> the travel modeling space?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Chris Day
>
>
> --
> Full post: https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: https://tmip.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/14037
>

Mon, 08/28/2023 - 7:25am

#5

winufuwub

Concur with Peter, I have an Engineering background, have been in the field
for 51 years and do not even know what a PE is.
But I have never worked in the USA and maybe there it is of some importance.
Cheers
Juande Dios Ortúzar

On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 at 07:17 PStopher wrote:

> Chris,
>
> I have been a transportation planner (Civil engineering Bachelor's degree)
> for 59 years. I am not a PE and it has never presented a problem for me.
> Not having one never precluded me from any job so far and I am now 80 years
> old.
>
> Peter Stopher
>
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 12:18 PM, cday wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hey everyone,
> >
> > I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago.
> > My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science.
> > (Check out my thesis here )
> > This helped me get a job working on travel demand model development at my
> > local MPO. So far I love working with the travel model and enjoy data
> > science and all things dealing with code.
> >
> > My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I
> > already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I also
> > don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in travel
> > demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable
> > future.
> >
> > I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another qualification,
> > even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting the
> > PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed in
> > the travel modeling space?
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > Chris Day
> >
> >
> > --
> > Full post:
> https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> > Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
> > Stop emails for this post:
> https://tmip.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/14037
> >
> --
> Full post: https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: https://tmip.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/14037
>
--
J. de D. Ortúzar
Emeritus Professor
Department of Transport Engineering and Logistics
Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
www.ing.puc.cl/jos

Mon, 08/28/2023 - 9:58am

#6

ggiaimo

Chris

Since you don't have a response from someone with a PE, I'll give you one. I'm only at 32 years, 28 with a PE and a masters in civil engineering. I basically agree with them, I've never had to use my PE to sign off on something. However, I have used it in 2 ways related to engineering oriented firms (such as state DOTs). First as mentioned above they sometimes require a PE on the consulting team. Second, if you work for such an entity, the pay structures have positions that require a PE. It doesn't mean you can't get a good position without one, but it opens doors for you if crass considerations like making more money are important to you. I'm not sure if there is an implication regarding expert witness related to a traffic forecast since I haven't come across it myself but courts sometimes like credentials like that.

All that being said, plenty of people run out to get initials such as AICP, PTOE and PhD behind their names and those have even less tangible benefit in our field which shows that some people find such things important. So, if you're going to try putting any initials behind your name I suppose PE is as good as any. Of course, besides taking the test you'll have to maintain professional development hours and send the licensing board a small fee every few years.

Greg

Mon, 08/28/2023 - 10:22am

#7

cday

Hey everyone,

Thank you so much for your replies! I appreciate all of your advice and
experiences. I'll be sure to apply them to my situation and make a good
decision. Maybe in a year or two I'll update you all on what I ultimately
choose.

In regards to the responses, I went ahead and tallied up the "Yes get a PE"
and the "No, probably not necessary" and it's pretty even! About 54% are
leaning toward it's worth getting and about 46% are leaning toward it not
being necessary. (Of course, many of those responses were "It depends" --
so take this statistic with a grain of salt.

Model on!

Chris Day

On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 6:44 AM winufuwub wrote:

> Concur with Peter, I have an Engineering background, have been in the field
> for 51 years and do not even know what a PE is.
> But I have never worked in the USA and maybe there it is of some
> importance.
> Cheers
> Juande Dios Ortúzar
>
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 at 07:17 PStopher wrote:
>
> > Chris,
> >
> > I have been a transportation planner (Civil engineering Bachelor's
> degree)
> > for 59 years. I am not a PE and it has never presented a problem for me.
> > Not having one never precluded me from any job so far and I am now 80
> years
> > old.
> >
> > Peter Stopher
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 12:18 PM, cday wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hey everyone,
> > >
> > > I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year
> ago.
> > > My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data
> science.
> > > (Check out my thesis here )
> > > This helped me get a job working on travel demand model development at
> my
> > > local MPO. So far I love working with the travel model and enjoy data
> > > science and all things dealing with code.
> > >
> > > My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I
> > > already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I
> also
> > > don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in
> travel
> > > demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable
> > > future.
> > >
> > > I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another
> qualification,
> > > even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting
> the
> > > PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed
> in
> > > the travel modeling space?
> > >
> > > Thank you,
> > >
> > > Chris Day
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Full post:
> > https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> > > Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
> > > Stop emails for this post:
> > https://tmip.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/14037
> > >
> > --
> > Full post:
> https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> > Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
> > Stop emails for this post:
> https://tmip.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/14037
> >
> --
> J. de D. Ortúzar
> Emeritus Professor
> Department of Transport Engineering and Logistics
> Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile
> www.ing.puc.cl/jos
> --
> Full post: https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
> Stop emails for this post: https://tmip.org/mailinglist/unsubscribe/14037
>

Mon, 08/28/2023 - 10:35am

#8

Polzin

Having gotten a PE but not kept it current, I occasionally tell folks that PE stands for Previously an Engineer.

In many aspects of transportation, it is not critical or relevant but like many credentials, it adds credibility or camaraderie with certain audiences.

Steven E. Polzin, PhD
Research Professor, TOMNET University Transportation Center
School of Sustainable Engineering and the Built Environment
Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ
sepolzin@asu.edu
steven.polzin@spolzin.onmicrosoft.com
813-416-7517

From: trossi=camsys.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of weqiqulam
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 7:21 AM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Hi Chris

First, let me say that Tushar is a smart guy with a lot of experience. It’s worth listening to him! (Hi, Tushar!)

That said, I do not have a P.E., and I too have a master’s degree from a civil engineering program. I went to grad school after working in small MPOs doing travel modeling for four years after I got my bachelor’s degree, also in civil engineering. I thought I would go back to the public sector after getting my master’s, but I decided to give consulting a try. I’ve given it 36 years, and I think I will give it some more time…

In all that time working for the same company, I have never regretted lacking a P.E., and it has never kept me from working on anything I wanted to. I have managed modeling projects in about half the states as well as for the federal government, and there was never a requirement for me to have a P.E. Some of these projects were for MPOs and others for state DOTs, as well as a few other public agencies.
My company has over 40 modelers, and while some have P.E.’s, most do not.

Tushar is correct, though, that there are some state DOTs that do require their consultants to have a P.E. on the project though it doesn’t always have to be the project manager. Sometimes our proposals include someone from our staff who has a P.E., to fulfill such a requirement, and my company has several people with P.E.’s. I also should note that it may make a difference for a private employer who is an engineering firm (mine is not).

I can’t speak with as much knowledge regarding public sector employment. A P.E. would not have benefitted me in my long ago MPO positions, but it might matter for some other agencies, especially at the state level, in terms of qualification for a position, advancement, or salary. Some of my public sector clients have had P.E.’s, and some haven’t. And for a lot of them, I have no idea though they are eminently qualified.

It certainly can’t hurt to put “P.E.” after your name, but in my experience, it doesn’t really mean much in terms of how good you are at modeling. It probably is more of a personal choice for you.

Best of luck in your career!

--Tom

Thomas F. Rossi
Principal
Travel Demand Forecasting
101 Station Landing, Suite 410
Medford, MA 02155
t 781-539-6756

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9D7A1.3DF170C0]
www.camsys.com

Connect with us
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From: tushar.patel=aecom.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of tusharpatel1
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 2:56 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Chris – Hello.
It is great that you love travel demand forecasting and data science.

You certainly do not need PE if you want to stay on technical track in modeling and data science. However, most of the Dept of transportation projects RFPs require proposed project manager to have PE, even on purely modeling projects. So in those cases, it can help to have a PE, from the consulting firm’s perspective.

Thanks, Tushar

From: cday=wfrc.org@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of cday
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 1:18 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Hey everyone,

I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago. My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science. (Check out my thesis here) This helped me get a job working on travel demand model development at my local MPO. So far I love working with the travel model and enjoy data science and all things dealing with code.

My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I also don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in travel demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable future.

I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another qualification, even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting the PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed in the travel modeling space?

Thank you,

Chris Day

--
Full post: https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
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Mon, 08/28/2023 - 10:50am

#9

rebekah

Hi. If you plan to work at an MPO or a consulting firm, it probably makes little to no difference. If you want to work at a DOT, it may. Some DOTs will give a salary bonus if you have one. At others (e.g. Ohio), you can only work as a junior engineer without one. All mid-level and senior engineer positions require one. (And obviously, this is only for the US as a PE is a US license.)

If you want to work in traffic engineering (and it sounds like you do not), then the DOT may again require a PE, but perhaps not a PTOE. However, many consulting firms seem to want the PTOE as well. (I believe some RFPs may also require a PTOE.)

- Rebekah (Ohio DOT)

(My PE exam had a question that used fratar. But the rest of the exam had nothing to do with modeling.)

Mon, 08/28/2023 - 12:23pm

#10

Dan Beagan

It’s All Over Now, Baby Blue

The highway is for gamblers, better use your sense
Take what you have gathered from coincidence
The empty-handed painter from your streets
Is drawing crazy patterns on your sheets
This sky, too, is folding under you
And it's all over now, baby blue.

Coincidence is God’s sense of humor.

I have been musing on Pythagoras’ Theorem. The Transportation Modeling Improvement Program included a post from someone who wanted to know whether he should get a Professional engineering license. In responding I was going to quote from the movie the Wizard of Oz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOxU2rKLas. When given a diploma, e.g. a PE, the Scarecrow starts to quote Pythagoras’ Theorem, and to me that was a coincidence.

The Scarecrow had to already know that Theorem. The diploma only said that he could be trusted to know it. Getting a PE does not add to your wisdom. It does serve as a shorthand that others have tested your wisdom and it can be trusted. The reality is that you already must know Pythagoras’ Theorem BEFORE you get your “Doctor of Thinkology, Th.D.”,…. or a PE. A PE says that your judgement has been judged by others. It may be that you will someday be in a position where you are not known, and your opinion may have to be quickly judged. In that case a PE may serve as that proof. Getting a PE to me is like giving Chicken Soup to a dead man. Will it help? It couldn’t hurt!

From: trossi=camsys.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of weqiqulam
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 7:21 AM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Hi Chris

First, let me say that Tushar is a smart guy with a lot of experience. It’s worth listening to him! (Hi, Tushar!)

That said, I do not have a P.E., and I too have a master’s degree from a civil engineering program. I went to grad school after working in small MPOs doing travel modeling for four years after I got my bachelor’s degree, also in civil engineering. I thought I would go back to the public sector after getting my master’s, but I decided to give consulting a try. I’ve given it 36 years, and I think I will give it some more time…

In all that time working for the same company, I have never regretted lacking a P.E., and it has never kept me from working on anything I wanted to. I have managed modeling projects in about half the states as well as for the federal government, and there was never a requirement for me to have a P.E. Some of these projects were for MPOs and others for state DOTs, as well as a few other public agencies.
My company has over 40 modelers, and while some have P.E.’s, most do not.

Tushar is correct, though, that there are some state DOTs that do require their consultants to have a P.E. on the project though it doesn’t always have to be the project manager. Sometimes our proposals include someone from our staff who has a P.E., to fulfill such a requirement, and my company has several people with P.E.’s. I also should note that it may make a difference for a private employer who is an engineering firm (mine is not).

I can’t speak with as much knowledge regarding public sector employment. A P.E. would not have benefitted me in my long ago MPO positions, but it might matter for some other agencies, especially at the state level, in terms of qualification for a position, advancement, or salary. Some of my public sector clients have had P.E.’s, and some haven’t. And for a lot of them, I have no idea though they are eminently qualified.

It certainly can’t hurt to put “P.E.” after your name, but in my experience, it doesn’t really mean much in terms of how good you are at modeling. It probably is more of a personal choice for you.

Best of luck in your career!

--Tom

Thomas F. Rossi
Principal
Travel Demand Forecasting
101 Station Landing, Suite 410
Medford, MA 02155
t 781-539-6756

[cid:image001.jpg@01D9D7A1.3DF170C0]
www.camsys.com

Connect with us
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From: tushar.patel=aecom.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of tusharpatel1
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 2:56 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Chris – Hello.
It is great that you love travel demand forecasting and data science.

You certainly do not need PE if you want to stay on technical track in modeling and data science. However, most of the Dept of transportation projects RFPs require proposed project manager to have PE, even on purely modeling projects. So in those cases, it can help to have a PE, from the consulting firm’s perspective.

Thanks, Tushar

From: cday=wfrc.org@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of cday
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 1:18 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Hey everyone,

I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago. My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science. (Check out my thesis here) This helped me get a job working on travel demand model development at my local MPO. So far I love working with the travel model and enjoy data science and all things dealing with code.

My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I also don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in travel demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable future.

I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another qualification, even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting the PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed in the travel modeling space?

Thank you,

Chris Day

--
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Mon, 08/28/2023 - 2:26pm

#11

jabunch

It really depends on what your vision of your career is. If you want to
build a career in a State DOT or Highway Department its definitely worth
getting a PE because it opens doors as you move up the ladder. Like
others, I never saw any benefit in a PE for most of my career working at an
MPO, transit agency, a USDOT research and support contractor, and
consulting firms that were focused on travel forecasting and data
analysis. However, I now work for a traditional architecture and
engineering firm that has a culture built around traditional engineering
and getting your PE. Here, it is important to have a PE, or if not other
certifications such as an AICP (but they don't matter nearly as much).
Also, if you are really really good and outstanding in what you do and are
valued for it, its not as important, but you don't really know how this
will be when you are starting out.

So it really depends on you.

On Fri, Aug 25, 2023 at 2:56 PM tusharpatel1 wrote:

> Chris – Hello.
> It is great that you love travel demand forecasting and data science.
>
> You certainly do not need PE if you want to stay on technical track in
> modeling and data science. However, most of the Dept of transportation
> projects RFPs require proposed project manager to have PE, even on purely
> modeling projects. So in those cases, it can help to have a PE, from the
> consulting firm’s perspective.
>
> Thanks, Tushar
>
> From: cday=wfrc.org@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of cday
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2023 1:18 PM
> To: TMIP
> Subject: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?
>
> Hey everyone, I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering
> about a year ago. My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling
> and data science. (Check out my thesis here) This helped me get a job
> working on travel demand model
>
> Hey everyone,
>
> I graduated with a master's degree in Civil Engineering about a year ago.
> My degree gave me some experience with travel modeling and data science.
> (Check out my thesis here) This helped me get a job working on travel
> demand model development at my local MPO. So far I love working with the
> travel model and enjoy data science and all things dealing with code.
>
> My question is, should I get my PE in Transportation Engineering? I
> already passed the FE, but one more big test sounds like a hassle. I also
> don't enjoy normal "civil engineering" stuff, and want to stay in travel
> demand modeling and/or data science related things in the foreseeable
> future.
>
> I guess the smart thing to do is take the test as another qualification,
> even if I don't intend to use it. What are your thoughts? Has getting the
> PE in your career been a help or an advantage, even if you have stayed in
> the travel modeling space?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Chris Day
>
> --
> Full post: https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
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> --
> Full post: https://tmip.org/content/pe-worth-getting-travel-demand-modeler
> Manage my subscriptions: https://tmip.org/mailinglist
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>

--
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411 Penwood Road, Silver Spring Maryland, 20901
240-271-3534 jabunch.work@gmail.com

Mon, 08/28/2023 - 5:36pm

#12

jehrlich

Another response from someone with a PE, but who has never formally used it in 19 years. I've never signed off as an engineer on a document, and never will, but I'd say there are 4 (very small) positives:

1. If you ever want to get it, now's the time. The exam doesn't get any easier the further you get from school, and the application materials (at least in my state) require an exhaustive dossier of your career, which is very difficult to do once your career gets longer.
2. I started in a consulting firm that categorically wouldn't promote staff without a professional certification. That practice ended at that firm around the same time I got my PE, and I imagine is rarer now, but is probably required for advancement still at some employers.
3. Some engineers I've encountered in my career listen to what I say more seriously because I have a PE. There's no reason that taking a test 20 years ago on structural engineering, hydrology, and roadway design makes my opinion on travel forecasting more valuable. I'd say the actual number is pretty small, and generally not people I respect much in turn.
4. I think there is some real value in being formally accountable to a state agency with an enforceable code of ethics.

Negatives are that preparing for the exam takes a lot of time, and maintaining your licensure costs money that you may or may not be able to get your employer to reimburse. Maintaining PDHs is a very small burden.

---
Jonathan Ehrlich
Pronouns: he/him/his
Senior Manager: Transportation Research
Metropolitan Council Transportation Services
P. 651-602-1408

From: Gregory.Giaimo=wsp.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of ggiaimo
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 3:22 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

You don't often get email from gregory.giaimo@wsp.com. Learn why this is important

Chris

Since you don't have a response from someone with a PE, I'll give you one. I'm only at 32 years, 28 with a PE and a masters in civil engineering. I basically agree with them, I've never had to use my PE to sign off on something. However, I have used it in 2 ways related to engineering oriented firms (such as state DOTs). First as mentioned above they sometimes require a PE on the consulting team. Second, if you work for such an entity, the pay structures have positions that require a PE. It doesn't mean you can't get a good position without one, but it opens doors for you if crass considerations like making more money are important to you. I'm not sure if there is an implication regarding expert witness related to a traffic forecast since I haven't come across it myself but courts sometimes like credentials like that.

All that being said, plenty of people run out to get initials such as AICP, PTOE and PhD behind their names and those have even less tangible benefit in our field which shows that some people find such things important. So, if you're going to try putting any initials behind your name I suppose PE is as good as any. Of course, besides taking the test you'll have to maintain professional development hours and send the licensing board a small fee every few years.

Greg
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Mon, 08/28/2023 - 5:47pm

#13

Dan Beagan

Being an expert witness AND not having a PE is why I decided to get a PE. I was an expert witness for the plaintiff in a case which concerned how to use a software program which I had written. On the stand I was asked one, and only one, question by the defense in rebuttal. Was I a PE? Since I was not, the judge was asked to dismiss all of my testimony as untrustworthy, and the judge concurred. The next day, I applied for my PE.

From: Gregory.Giaimo=wsp.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of ggiaimo
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 4:23 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Chris

Since you don't have a response from someone with a PE, I'll give you one. I'm only at 32 years, 28 with a PE and a masters in civil engineering. I basically agree with them, I've never had to use my PE to sign off on something. However, I have used it in 2 ways related to engineering oriented firms (such as state DOTs). First as mentioned above they sometimes require a PE on the consulting team. Second, if you work for such an entity, the pay structures have positions that require a PE. It doesn't mean you can't get a good position without one, but it opens doors for you if crass considerations like making more money are important to you. I'm not sure if there is an implication regarding expert witness related to a traffic forecast since I haven't come across it myself but courts sometimes like credentials like that.

All that being said, plenty of people run out to get initials such as AICP, PTOE and PhD behind their names and those have even less tangible benefit in our field which shows that some people find such things important. So, if you're going to try putting any initials behind your name I suppose PE is as good as any. Of course, besides taking the test you'll have to maintain professional development hours and send the licensing board a small fee every few years.

Greg
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Tue, 08/29/2023 - 11:05am

#14

rob.schiffer

Chris,

I only sent this initial response to you as I didn't want to rile up the engineers out there but since nobody else replied from a planner's perspective, here goes... I'm an urban planner who has done consulting work for nearly 40 years, focused largely on travel demand modeling. Not only is a P.E. not necessary for work in travel demand modeling but neither is an engineering degree. I have a Master of Science in Urban and Regional Planning with a specialization in Transportation Planning... I studied modeling, demographic analyses, and statistics in grad school and have since taught the modeling course at my alma mater on three separate occasions. Several students from the Engineering School took my class as well. I do maintain my AICP as most agencies require some level of certification. I know of several engineers in this arena who have also successfully achieved AICP status. As noted by others, there are numerous engineers who work in travel demand modeling who don't have a P.E., some of whom have been working for longer than me even.

-Rob

Robert G. Schiffer, AICP
President, FuturePlan Consulting, LLC
1256 Walden Road | Tallahassee, FL 32317
850-570-8958 | 850-877-1995
rob.schiffer@futureplan.us
https://futureplan.us/
[Logo Description automatically generated]
Robert G. Schiffer, AICP
National Practice Leader, Travel Demand Forecasting
[cid:image002.png@01D9DA68.BCD35240]
[cid:image003.png@01D9DA68.BCD35240]
+1 850-570-8958
[cid:image004.png@01D9DA68.BCD35240]
rob@metroanalytics.com
[cid:image005.png@01D9DA68.BCD35240]
www.metroanalytics.com
[Facebook]
[Twitter]
[Instagram]
[LinkedIn]

From: jonathan.ehrlich=metc.state.mn.us@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of jehrlich
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 10:12 AM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Another response from someone with a PE, but who has never formally used it in 19 years. I've never signed off as an engineer on a document, and never will, but I'd say there are 4 (very small) positives:

1. If you ever want to get it, now's the time. The exam doesn't get any easier the further you get from school, and the application materials (at least in my state) require an exhaustive dossier of your career, which is very difficult to do once your career gets longer.
2. I started in a consulting firm that categorically wouldn't promote staff without a professional certification. That practice ended at that firm around the same time I got my PE, and I imagine is rarer now, but is probably required for advancement still at some employers.
3. Some engineers I've encountered in my career listen to what I say more seriously because I have a PE. There's no reason that taking a test 20 years ago on structural engineering, hydrology, and roadway design makes my opinion on travel forecasting more valuable. I'd say the actual number is pretty small, and generally not people I respect much in turn.
4. I think there is some real value in being formally accountable to a state agency with an enforceable code of ethics.

Negatives are that preparing for the exam takes a lot of time, and maintaining your licensure costs money that you may or may not be able to get your employer to reimburse. Maintaining PDHs is a very small burden.

---
Jonathan Ehrlich
Pronouns: he/him/his
Senior Manager: Transportation Research
Metropolitan Council Transportation Services
P. 651-602-1408

From: Gregory.Giaimo=wsp.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of ggiaimo
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 3:22 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

You don't often get email from gregory.giaimo@wsp.com. Learn why this is important

Chris

Since you don't have a response from someone with a PE, I'll give you one. I'm only at 32 years, 28 with a PE and a masters in civil engineering. I basically agree with them, I've never had to use my PE to sign off on something. However, I have used it in 2 ways related to engineering oriented firms (such as state DOTs). First as mentioned above they sometimes require a PE on the consulting team. Second, if you work for such an entity, the pay structures have positions that require a PE. It doesn't mean you can't get a good position without one, but it opens doors for you if crass considerations like making more money are important to you. I'm not sure if there is an implication regarding expert witness related to a traffic forecast since I haven't come across it myself but courts sometimes like credentials like that.

All that being said, plenty of people run out to get initials such as AICP, PTOE and PhD behind their names and those have even less tangible benefit in our field which shows that some people find such things important. So, if you're going to try putting any initials behind your name I suppose PE is as good as any. Of course, besides taking the test you'll have to maintain professional development hours and send the licensing board a small fee every few years.

Greg
--
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Tue, 08/29/2023 - 12:00pm

#15

jeremy.raw

I'll weigh in briefly as a modeler with a Professional Engineer license. The PE license has many points in its favor, as people have pointed out, but it really depends on the context. I've never directly "used" it, but it does implicitly say you're somebody with technical chops. Specifically, my formal job title is "Community Planner" (which in itself may suggest "technical lightweight" to some people); the P.E. suggests in contrast that I am unintimidated by (okay, to be honest, "obsessively drawn to") the technical minutiae.

My own career path relative to the PE is illustrative of some other points regarding when, where and why to get the license:

1. I got my original engineering degree in 1985 in Mechanical Engineering. My advisor essentially demanded that I do the Fundamentals of Engineering exam (at the time, they called it the "Engineer In Training") during my last semester at school. He argued, as Jonathan did, that such a test will never get easier. Even then, I knew I was heading off to work as a software developer, where no one had ever heard of the PE, let alone had one. But I did the test and passed, and then forgot about it.
2. Fast forward about twenty years and I was done officially being a software developer and I was working in transportation planning and modeling for a state DOT that was quite happy to pay for a "how to pass the PE test" class (I highly recommend doing one of those classes if you're planning to sit for the full PE exam, even if you think you know it all). I decided at the time to do the PE mostly because I was tired of getting questions from engineers I worked with along the lines of "if you went to engineering school, how come you're not an engineer?" New York State dug up my record of passing the FE, I took the prep course (this time in Civil Engineering with a Transportation focus), and I passed the test to get my license in Virginia.
3. These days, I do a lot of reviews of modeling for NEPA studies, and ratifying (or complaining about) such modeling definitely benefits from the PE "cachet" on my signature, and it has helped me avoid the courtroom debacle that Dan Beagan described elsewhere. It absolutely helps to have some credential after your name any time you need to tell people things they don't want to hear.

I hope that's helpful!

Best Regards,
Jeremy
---
Jeremy Raw, P.E.
FHWA / Office of Planning / Systems Planning and Analysis Team
Jeremy.Raw@dot.gov / 202-680-9573 (office/mobile)

From: jonathan.ehrlich=metc.state.mn.us@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of jehrlich
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 10:12 AM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Department of Transportation (DOT). Do not click on links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Another response from someone with a PE, but who has never formally used it in 19 years. I've never signed off as an engineer on a document, and never will, but I'd say there are 4 (very small) positives:

1. If you ever want to get it, now's the time. The exam doesn't get any easier the further you get from school, and the application materials (at least in my state) require an exhaustive dossier of your career, which is very difficult to do once your career gets longer.
2. I started in a consulting firm that categorically wouldn't promote staff without a professional certification. That practice ended at that firm around the same time I got my PE, and I imagine is rarer now, but is probably required for advancement still at some employers.
3. Some engineers I've encountered in my career listen to what I say more seriously because I have a PE. There's no reason that taking a test 20 years ago on structural engineering, hydrology, and roadway design makes my opinion on travel forecasting more valuable. I'd say the actual number is pretty small, and generally not people I respect much in turn.
4. I think there is some real value in being formally accountable to a state agency with an enforceable code of ethics.

Negatives are that preparing for the exam takes a lot of time, and maintaining your licensure costs money that you may or may not be able to get your employer to reimburse. Maintaining PDHs is a very small burden.

---
Jonathan Ehrlich
Pronouns: he/him/his
Senior Manager: Transportation Research
Metropolitan Council Transportation Services
P. 651-602-1408

From: Gregory.Giaimo=wsp.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of ggiaimo
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 3:22 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

You don't often get email from gregory.giaimo@wsp.com. Learn why this is important

Chris

Since you don't have a response from someone with a PE, I'll give you one. I'm only at 32 years, 28 with a PE and a masters in civil engineering. I basically agree with them, I've never had to use my PE to sign off on something. However, I have used it in 2 ways related to engineering oriented firms (such as state DOTs). First as mentioned above they sometimes require a PE on the consulting team. Second, if you work for such an entity, the pay structures have positions that require a PE. It doesn't mean you can't get a good position without one, but it opens doors for you if crass considerations like making more money are important to you. I'm not sure if there is an implication regarding expert witness related to a traffic forecast since I haven't come across it myself but courts sometimes like credentials like that.

All that being said, plenty of people run out to get initials such as AICP, PTOE and PhD behind their names and those have even less tangible benefit in our field which shows that some people find such things important. So, if you're going to try putting any initials behind your name I suppose PE is as good as any. Of course, besides taking the test you'll have to maintain professional development hours and send the licensing board a small fee every few years.

Greg
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Tue, 08/29/2023 - 2:46pm

#16

Becky_Knudson

Chris,
I too wish to respond to this thread regarding PEs conducting modeling and analysis for the Oregon DOT. While I am an economist, I am the only economist in my unit, the rest of our crew are either PEs or on the PE track. The State of Oregon has been sued for several large projects, appearing in court to successfully defend analysis prepared by PEs, not stamped - but prepared. We also have a detailed Analysis Procedures Manual that provides current methods and procedures required for OrDOT long range project planning and project development. Our contracts require PEs to be part of the team.

About 25 years ago we shifted some positions to planners and GIS analysts, but it was challenging to teach non-engineers to apply engineering principles and we abandoned this approach. From observing my PE peers, if you are not sure about getting a PE, take the test. It is easier to study now and get it over with rather than waiting to take it 10 years after school when life is pretty hectic and topic knowledge has faded.

Becky

From: dbeagan=camsys.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of Dan Beagan
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 7:08 AM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

You don't often get email from dbeagan@camsys.com. Learn why this is important

This message was sent from outside the organization. Treat attachments, links and requests with caution. Be conscious of the information you share if you respond.

Being an expert witness AND not having a PE is why I decided to get a PE. I was an expert witness for the plaintiff in a case which concerned how to use a software program which I had written. On the stand I was asked one, and only one, question by the defense in rebuttal. Was I a PE? Since I was not, the judge was asked to dismiss all of my testimony as untrustworthy, and the judge concurred. The next day, I applied for my PE.

From: Gregory.Giaimo=wsp.com@mg.tmip.org On Behalf Of ggiaimo
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 4:23 PM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?

Chris

Since you don't have a response from someone with a PE, I'll give you one. I'm only at 32 years, 28 with a PE and a masters in civil engineering. I basically agree with them, I've never had to use my PE to sign off on something. However, I have used it in 2 ways related to engineering oriented firms (such as state DOTs). First as mentioned above they sometimes require a PE on the consulting team. Second, if you work for such an entity, the pay structures have positions that require a PE. It doesn't mean you can't get a good position without one, but it opens doors for you if crass considerations like making more money are important to you. I'm not sure if there is an implication regarding expert witness related to a traffic forecast since I haven't come across it myself but courts sometimes like credentials like that.

All that being said, plenty of people run out to get initials such as AICP, PTOE and PhD behind their names and those have even less tangible benefit in our field which shows that some people find such things important. So, if you're going to try putting any initials behind your name I suppose PE is as good as any. Of course, besides taking the test you'll have to maintain professional development hours and send the licensing board a small fee every few years.

Greg
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Wed, 08/30/2023 - 10:20am

#17

colbybrown

A major goal of travel demand modeling and forecasting should be to critically evaluate proposed transportation projects in terms of whether they are consistent with evidence-based knowledge and reasoning about human behavior and well-being.

Economics, psychology, and other (unfortunately rare) quantitative social science skills are far more relevant to that endeavor than knowing how to build roads (i.e. using the structural engineering and roadway design skills Jonathan mentioned). Someone who feels less than enthusiastic about building roads is less likely to bother learning how to do it, so I wonder if requiring a P.E. to do travel demand modeling would yield a population of modelers who are slightly biased towards pro-highway solutions.

Thanks to all for the interesting discussion!

Colby Brown, Manhan
colby@manhangroup.com
________________________________
From: rob.schiffer=futureplan.us@mg.tmip.org on behalf of rob.schiffer
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2023 6:57 AM
To: TMIP
Subject: Re: [TMIP] Is a PE worth getting as a Travel Demand Modeler?